1. Comment on the following questions (be sure to incorporate detail from the novel in your response):
a. Was Sethe justified in her actions in the shed, when Schoolteacher came?
b. What psychological ramifications of slavery do the characters in Beloved deal with (Give examples)?
2. Explore the motif of the color red in the novel. With a partner, find examples and speculate reasons for Morrison's inclusion. Then, share them with the class on the blog, commenting under "Red Motif."
3. Create your own discussion question POST
IT and comment on each of your classmates' questions.
4. Read p. 248-257 in which Beloved becomes the narrator, and respond to the section
in a NEW POST.
5. Continue reading to p.277 for Thursday.
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ReplyDeletea. As I stated at the last post, I believe that Sethe was justified, meaning, I understand where she was coming from. I think that it was also, as she said, better than the alternative. She saved her children from uncertain and terrible lives back at Sweet Home under the eye of Schoolteacher. Could I do the same thing? No. But I don't know Sethe's situation. I don't know all of her reasons for doing what she did. The only one who can pass judgment on Sethe is Sethe herself. And she's a fictional character. So, no one can.
ReplyDeleteIt was awful, what she did. But does anyone see an alternative?
b. For one, Sethe would rather murder her children than go back into the life of slavery at Sweet Home (174-180). Paul D has committed himself to a life of wandering, never staying put for more than a handful of months at a time. Baby Suggs, once freed doesn't know what to do with herself. She marvels at the fact that now, she owns every moment of herself-- something I don't, and probably can't empathize with--but she's almost lost until she finds herself a job and a place to stay (159-173).
1.
ReplyDeletea. I think that Sethe was justified in her actions when the Schoolteacher came. Sethe did not want to see her children go through her experience in Sweet Home. She loved her children very much and they were the best part of her life. Sethe knew that if the Schoolteacher took her children away from her, they would become slaves and she would not see them for a very long time or even at all. She knew what was to come for her children if she did not make a move then.
b.In the novel, slavery had impacted the characters minds greatly. Slavery had made the characters become crazy, especially Paul D. Since slavery, Paul D takes everything to heart and overreacts. In the beginning of the novel when the ghost appears in the kitchen, Paul D begins a fight with the ghost and becomes violent and tears the kitchen apart. Also, when Paul D finds out that Sethe killed her daughter, he immediately leaves because he could not stand living in the house any longer. Also, Paul D has a “tin heart.” His tin heart is a philosophy that he lives by. He feels that he should not open his heart to just one person because it will become broken again. I feel that slavery did this to him. In the novel, another character who suffered from slavery is Sethe. Slavery impacted Sehte’s mind by killing her children. Sethe saw that the Schoolteacher from Sweet Home was coming to get her and immediately needed a plan for the Schoolteacher to not take her children, so she killed them. Sethe killed them because she loved them and did not want to see them go through pain and suffer.
3. Who is your favorite character in the novel thusfar? Why?
ReplyDelete1.
ReplyDeletea) While Sethe's actions may have seemed logical to her in a moment of despair after years of abuse, they are certainly not justifiable. Regardless of your state of mind, the present circumstance, or your past, there is no way to rationalize murder, especially not the murder of your own children. Despite the fact that she was trying to save her children from slavery and the life she endured (and her actions may have allowed this success), they also led to the loss of her sons, and trouble with all those who visited 124.
b) Slavery presents a multitude of psychological issues. One of these issues is referred to as "the jungle," wherein slaves harbor anger for their captors out of spite and pain, and then their owners harbor hate out of fear, and turn to violence, leaving a growing ricochet of mailce. Aside from this effect, slaves are subject to animalization, humiliation, abuse, and belittlement. These effects lead to Sethe's actions, to Halle's insanity, and to the death and pain of several others, including Paul A. and Paul D.
2. (see alternate thread)
3. How do you think Beloved came back? What caused this? What will allow her to return?
a. Sethe escapes Sweet Home in aspirations of living a better life for herself and family. Bringing new life into this world becomes a great responsibility and Sethe, as a mother, wants the best for her children. Having experienced the brutalities of slavery and living with the long-term psychological and physical affects, Sethe wants to forget her past and move forward. In the novel, when Sethe recognizes the Schoolteacher she goes insane. In my opinion, Sethe’s actions were justified in the shed, because she knew if the Schoolteacher took her children away they would be slaves. Chapter 18 perfectly summarizes Sethe’s thought process in the shed: "She just flew. Collected every bit of life she had made, all the parts of her that were precious and fine and beautiful, and carried, pushed, dragged them through the veil, out, away, over there where no one could hurt them. Over there. Outside this place, where they would be safe” ( 192).
ReplyDeleteb. Many of the characters in this novel are changed psychologically due to slavery, because they were treated inhumanely in so many levels. A perfect example would be Sethe. Firsts of all, Sethe ran away from Sweet Home to escape slavery. Her experience at Sweet Home obviously affected her psychologically to the point where she would even kill her children. Also, throughout the novel Sethe makes it evident that she no longer wants to remember her past as a slave. Another example would Paul D. All the experiences at Sweet Home haunt him and therefore he hides his emotions in his “rusted tobacco tin heart”. This stops him from fully loving someone, and often he has difficulty opening to others. Halle, though not often metioned, also deals with psychological ramifications due to slavery. For example, after witnessing the school teacher’s assault towards Sethe he goes mad!
1A - Sethe was not justified in her actions in the shed. She was acting on her feelings, personal experiences, and pain inflicted on her by those men. Her children had yet to experience those hardships; therefore, the pain inflicted on them by their mother was the worst thing they had ever experienced. This psychological pain is more than they will understand in their lifetime (considering it was an overreaction). I can understand Sethe’s motivation behind her actions – she understood that death was easier and less painful than life as a slave, and she was willing to make that sacrifice for her children – but now, her sons are gone, her daughter is dead, and she is being haunted.
ReplyDelete1B - Every day the characters in Beloved have to deal with the psychological ramifications of slavery. In the very beginning of the novel, when Paul D first arrives, he talks about loving someone too much. As an ex-slave you need to be careful of how much love you hand out because it will be either taken away or not shared mutually. Also, the fact that Beloved, the apparition, it haunting 124 is a psychological ramification of slavery; if Sethe had never been traumatized by the Schoolteacher she wouldn’t have acted so rashly when they were approaching her house – her children would all be alive, well, and living together.
4 - Why do you think Beloved is making an appearance now, after all those years?
1. Comment on the following questions (be sure to incorporate detail from the novel in your response):
ReplyDeletea. Was Sethe justified in her actions in the shed, when Schoolteacher came?
Yes, Sethe’s actions in the shed were justified. Sethe believed that her children were all the good inside of her therefore if schoolteacher had taken them back to the tortures of Sweet Home; all the good in her life would vanish. With this understanding, I certainly believe that the action was justifiable because Sethe rather see her children go into the afterlife rather be back in the hardships of slavery; slavery has tainted her view of reality.
b. What psychological ramifications of slavery do the characters in Beloved deal with (Give examples)?
The forces of slavery had a great emotional impact on the minds /well-being of each of the characters. From the horrors each of the characters witnessed while enslaved caused something inside them to snap and they were never the same again; they have, in a way, lost their grip on reality. For example, Paul D lives by the philosophy of never feeling anything; he never wants himself to feel/show emotion because that makes a person vulnerable. Another example would be Sethe’s need to murder her children. The forces of slavery turned a mother’s love for her children into murder.
3- Do you think that Paul D will reutn to 124 beacuse of his love for Sethe?
ReplyDeleteKylie
3) What do you think truly happened to Halle?
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to read from Sethe’s perspective as she talks about the murder of her daughter, Beloved. Sethe recognized the fact that she took the life of her young child, and that it was necessary for the happiness of her daughter. This gets her to thinking however, that maybe her mother left her; her mother was running away, without her, and she got caught - bringing us back to the infamous love debate. Can you ever love someone too much? In this monologue Sethe justifies her case, and persuaded me to believing that what she did was the right thing for her daughter. She could have never, willingly, subjected her child to that level of torture.
ReplyDelete1. a) By attempting to end the lives of her children, Sethe was trying to keep them from suffering the torture of being a slave that she had endured. Her rational actions were touching in that she loved them so much she led her decisions with her heart that day more than her mind. Paul D goes as far to scold Sethe, “’ You got two legs, Sethe, not four,’” (Morrison, 194), but in a way she was accessing a mothering instinct in all beings to protect her children. I can understand that she meant well to keep her children in a safe place the only way she thought she could, she even states that she wanted them with Baby Suggs and her mother and the only place Schoolteacher could not get them, but I still do not think her actions are justifiable. Though I do not know and will probably never know really to what extent of horror the life of a slave was, I still have to disagree with Sethe’s actions. To me there is no reason to take away the life of a child or any human being. Why not choose to grab all her children and hide? Sethe chose the most radical option for her children and she possibly over protected them in this instance.
ReplyDeleteb) The psychological ramifications of slavery can be observed within every character in the novel. One of the most noticeable examples is Sethe killing her daughter and attempting to kill her other children to keep them away from slavery. The mental anxiety Sethe feels from her life as a slave is so hurtful she is willing to do something unthinkable to keep her children from having that experience. Another ramification seen often is the fear of love or to love someone else after slavery. Paul D best describes this when he thinks about loving everything just a little bit, so if it is taken away he may still may have enough love to share with another. He, as well as nearly all the characters, fears constantly that from one day to the next everything they hold dear could be gone. The physical and mental insults of being a slave, like Sethe remembering Schoolteacher teaching is students her animal characteristics, Halle going insane after witnessing Sethe’s torture with her milk, and Paul D being held in a small box in jail, stay with each individual and keeps them from being who they want to be; that memory holds them back, keeps them moving. Finally, the torture of others stays with the living after witnessing the death of so many. Stamp Paid even comments on hearing the voices of angry, restless slave souls while walking to 124. No matter what, the life of a slave is always impacted, even if they are free.
3. Stamp Paid feels regret after showing Paul D the article about Sethe and prompting his departure. Do you think he did not consider anyone else's feelings, like Sethe, Denver, or even Baby Suggs, because he secretly like everyone else in the community wanted Sethe to be secluded and suffer for what she did in the shed despite his relationship with the family?
ReplyDelete3. How has Beloved's presence impacted Denver's present and future?
ReplyDelete4. I've just read the bit where Beloved narrates, and I've come away mostly annoyed. And awed at the impossibly symbolism and ambiguity in the section.
ReplyDeleteI get it, as an author you're trying to be creative and mysterious and you wouldn't dare to be like everyone else. But there comes a point where it's like, enough already. I wanted to enjoy the story, but now you're driving me crazy with your ambiguity and I don't know what's going on anymore, and I can't even figure out the story's main conflict and why am I still reading...
Needless to say, I didn't like it. But, I am still interested in continuing to read, because Morrison does write beautifully--when she isn't going out of her way to be confusing. And "different".
response to discussion questions:
ReplyDeleteSarah> Why do you think Beloved is making an appearance now after all those years?
Love this question, because it's hard to say what exactly caused Beloved to return. In that point of the novel Sethe is reconnecting with her past because of Paul D, and for once everything is going well in the family. Denver is finally accepting Paul D, and for the first time Sethe and Denver are reconnecting with the community. When Beloved makes her first appearance at 124, in a way, it changes the course of the novel. This becomes a gateway for the readers to question the family's past and seek answers. I also think she appears to Sethe to be a constant reminder of what she did years ago....Maybe Beloved wants to make sure that Sethe never forgets her past, because in reality it never disappeared.
Kylie>Do you think that Paul D will reutn to 124 beacuse of his love for Sethe?
When Paul D finds out that Sethe killed her own children he is speechless. Never would Paul D think that Sethe was capable of committing such a thing. Paul D grew fond of Sethe over the years, and throughout the novel he was slowly giving her his heart. We all know that Paul D never loves someone entirely, but I thought maybe Sethe would be different.
I think he ran away, because Sethe was someone he trusted and most importantly loved. In my opinion even though this may change their relationship, I believe Paul D will return. This could be a learning experience for both of them to LOVE and ACCEPT the past..... I guess we'll see what happens!
Jess G> What's your favorite character in the novel thusfar? Why?
My favorite character would have to be Beloved. In the beginning of the novel no one truly knows what happened to her, and as the novel progresses the readers are able to connect the dots. I love her character because her appearance and purpose in the novel is filled with ambiguity! No one ever knows what to expect with her. Beloved also creates tension in the 124 household, which shows characteristics of characters never seen before.
I am eager to continue reading, because I'm interested in piecing together Beloved's character and essentially the end of this story.
Kylie,
ReplyDeleteI hope that Paul D will come back. I also think that he will. He'll regret what he said to Sethe about the number of her feet. However, I don't think that Sethe will let Paul D come back. She's mention the feet comment no less than three times since it happened, so she's definitely bitter about it. It would take a lot in order for him to forgive her.
Keila,
I think Halle went insane. He's wandering somewhere, wondering where he's supposed to be, or not knowing at all that he has somewhere else to be. Either that, or he's dead--killed during his wanderings.
Sarah,
Beloeved's back now because she was kicked out of the house in ghost form, by Paul D. So she had to come back another way, a way so strong that Paul D couldn't kick her out.
Jamie,
Similarly, Beloved is back now because she was banished from the house as a ghost. Baby Suggs probably helped her come back. At least, that's the consensus in the novel.
1a.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Sethe has gone through much pain and suffering in her lifetime, her actions are not justified. Sethe killed her children in order for them to escape the cruelty of the world she believed they were about to face. She was only trying to protect them from the life she had, but did not want them to live. She could not stand her children being taken away from her. This, I do understand. However, this is no reason to kill her children. Are there not other ways to escape this torture? Could she not escape from SchoolTeacher's torture? Is murder the only option? Sethe did not want a repeat of her life in theirs, but every life does serve a purpose. Sethe was a wonderful mother to Denver because even when other people come in her life, she always puts her daughter first. This is a very admirable quality. What if her children were born and they immediately overcame their situations? At this point, there's no way of finding out because of Sethe's irreversible actions. As horrible as it sounds, if every mother killed their children to escape slavery, what would we learn about it? Who would show us the horrors of it? Although I see why Sethe did what she did, I can probably never understand a love so strong that would cause you to kill. Is mercy killing not a crime? A life is a life.
1b.
Slavery has impacted all the characters in Beloved in one way or another. First of all, Sethe's judgment to murder her children instead of letting them live simply to escape these horrors is a huge consequence of slavery. This impacted not only Sethe, but her children and everyone else living around her. Another example is Sethe's inability to love someone as much as her children. She never lets anyone get too close because if they do they can taken away from her. All of the characters have the constant fear of something they love being taken away from them, especially Paul D. None of the characters are mentally stable because of their past experience with slavery.
3. Despite her connections with everyone around her, Beloved comes out of the water for Sethe alone. What do you think it will take for Beloved to go back to where she came from?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete1. a. Sethe was justified...in her psychological state. The way she had lived her life, bringing her babies back to slavery, even for an hour, would be worse than death. To someone who hadn't gone through such tragedy, they might have seen that logically, there could be other means of helping the children escape slavery without death. However, Sethe had seen death be a relief for many people and had seen it so often that it had become more of a commonplace sadness than a true tragedy. In her mind, by killing her children first, she was being a good mother by putting their need for death above her own.
ReplyDelete1. b. The answer to this question is exemplified in 1a. The slaves have felt what it's like to live a life that isn't your own, making them realize, that a life you don't own might not be worth living. This is the thought process that made Sethe slay her baby, so that her baby's entire life would have been her own. Also, the passage where Baby Suggs can finally feel her heart beating after decades of being alive, shows how little life is felt while so confined. To be so absorbed in being owned that one cannot even feel his or her own emotions is an utterly terrifying thought, so much so that just thinking about it for too long could logically drag one into madness.
3. What was the significance of Beloved's tooth falling out when Sethe didn't pay her enough attention? What do you think the escalation of that would have been if Paul D hadn't left and Beloved had continued to receive only a part of Sethe's love?
Sarah, Beloved needs attention, in any form. She needs to feel remembered. When she was haunting the house, she felt like she had the family's attention, but when Paul D came, all of a sudden the family was happier, moving on, and leaving Beloved's tragedy behind. She couldn't stand that, so she had to escalate her haunting a bit.
ReplyDeleteKylie, I think for his own safety, he probably shouldn't. Beloved's obsession with Sethe is heightening and if he returned, I think it wouldn't be long before Beloved scared him off again or did something horrifying to make sure he didn't steal away her attention.
Keila, I think Paul D was telling the truth. He had no reason to lie, and he wouldn't have risked hurting Sethe so much if the story he told wasn't the truth. Halle might physically still be out there, but his brain is long gone and never coming back.
Grace, I get the feeling that Beloved does not want to ever return to where she came from...alone. I think she is happy where she is with Sethe and doesn't ever want to be away from her again. I think her willingly going back into the water would involve her bringing Sethe with her.
Jess Griscti, Baby Suggs seems to be the voice of wisdom throughout most of this novel. She sees a lot of good in the world, and then eventually the bad. However, even during the bad part of her life, she is wise enough to study things that won't make her unhappy, like color. Other than that, I like Here Boy.
4.
ReplyDeletePage 248-257 is when Beloved tells her story as the narrator.
All this time, we've heard other people's reactions to Beloved's death and Beloved's arrival. We even just heard Sethe's side of the story from her own mouth. However, we never did hear from Beloved, who is already a mysterious character enough.
Although questions aren't really answered directly, they are in a sense. We learn of how much she does yearn for her mother's face and the battle it was to get back to her. We also learn what a horrible after-life type of place she was in, which confirms her identity. Although a great deal of her monologue was vague and ambiguous, so much is clarified as far as Beloved's character.
4.) I have just read the section where Beloved narrates and I am somewhat disappointed by it. As I began to read, I was excited by the thought that I may finally understand why and how Beloved has come to 124 after all of these years; however, I finished reading more confused about where Beloved came from than I did before. Morrison’s writing is very enjoyable and I love her creativity, but I’m upset that she insists on keeping Beloved’s past a mystery. On the other hand, I did like that we finally hear Beloved’s thoughts and feelings. Throughout the entire story we are always hearing everyone else’s opinion about Beloved, but now we actually hear Beloved herself.
ReplyDeleteResponse to Discussion Questions:
ReplyDeleteSarah- I believe that Beloved has returned at this point in the novel because at that point in the novel Sethe was finally her life. She is reconnecting with her past when Paul D arrives and Denver is finally accepting his presence at 124. They are, in a way, becoming a family. Beloved may see this as them forgetting about her therefore she needs to come back and stir up trouble and make sure that Sethe never forgets the horrible events of Beloved’s death; and that is exactly what she did.
Keila- I, like others in the novel, believe that Halle is dead. He went insane and became useless. He was probably hung or experienced some other horrible death.
Kylie- Although it may not be the best decision, I believe that Paul D will come back. I believe that there will come a point where he will regret everything that he has said to Sethe and come back to her. He loves her no matter what he has said. However I fear that if he comes back something may happen to him. Beloved is not fond of him and her passion for Sethe is growing therefore who knows what she will do to him?
1. Was Sethe justified in her actions in the shed, when Schoolteacher came?
ReplyDeleteBecause Toni Morrison centers her novel around Sethe, we can’t help but sympathize with her when we read about the actions that she took when Schoolteacher came. The entire novel, Sethe is seen as strong, courageous, and a loving mother, so though it is surprising to read about her circumstances of the murder, we find that Sethe was justified; she wouldn’t have done what she did if it wasn’t the right thing. Good and evil are seen all throughout the novel, and since the two opposites are constantly linking, all of the actions of Morrison’s characters seem realistic and humane. I, personally, sympathize with Sethe and feel that she was justified in protecting her children from the lifestyle that she had to go through.
2. What psychological ramifications of slavery do the characters in Beloved deal with?
Slavery presents a large amount of psychological strains on the characters in this novel. After slavery, these characters struggle with relationships – love and trust – and with how they see themselves. For so long, they were treated so badly, and they see themselves as worthless to the point where it drives them crazy. Self-protection and anger are common feelings among these ex-slaves, and they are emotional and psychological disasters. Painful memories pollute their minds, and these memories we see and experience for ourselves with Morrison’s use of flashback.
3. Create your own discussion question.
Do you think that Sethe killed her daughter with the memory of the hanging of her own mother in mind? Did this inspire her to be as devoted as Sethe likes to believe her mother was?
Grace – I think that nothing will cause Beloved to return to where she came from. At this point, she is feeling so much love and comfort from her family that she found again, and she has expressed this love in so many ways. Even with Paul D there, and though she wants him to leave so that she can have Sethe all to herself, we can see that she is learning to adjust and accept the circumstances. I think she is learning a lot from Denver – she is a great big-sister-figure to Beloved even though she is younger.
ReplyDeleteKylie – I think that Paul D will return to 124 because of his love for Sethe. What he is feeling for her is obviously true, and I don’t think that he will do well without her for very long. He was shocked when he found out what Sethe did to her children, a natural feeling that anyone would feel, most likely, but I don’t believe that will get in the way of the fondness he has had for her for so long. I think this is the first person he actually loves entirely, and maybe he’s just afraid, but I think Sethe was always his.
Kyra – Beloved has definitely impacted Denver. Denver’s character is the most dynamic in the novel, in my opinion, and her emotional growth since Beloved’s entrance is stunning. Beloved’s haunting past brings a wound in need of healing, and Denver is able to take the role as “big sister”, even though she is, in fact, Beloved’s younger sister, and take care of Beloved. She learns to accept her immediate circumstances and overcome her fear of the world beyond 124.
4) This entire chapter could be interpreted in many ways. In the beginning, I believe that Beloved is talking about her grave: " daylight comes through the cracks and I see his locked eyes" (248). In this section Beloved is searching for someone, and I sometimes get the sense that she is searching for herself. Towards the end of her monologue, Beloved is once again in the water and searching for a place to stay.
ReplyDeleteEven though Beloved's character is even more ambiguous, I feel like we have a better understanding from where she is coming from. I found this chapter to be very interesting, because it's the first time the reader sees the world through Beloved's eyes. (I hope we get to hear from again later in the novel)
4. Read pages 248-257 in which Beloved becomes the narrator, and respond to the section.
ReplyDeleteBeloved’s complex and mysterious monologues speak of her memories, which is a breath of fresh air because we can finally see a little bit of where she comes from in the novel. Her memories seem painful: she is among dead bodies, dying of hunger, and in a constant state of sickness. This place that she is in reminds me of hell, which supports this same supposition that I had earlier in the novel. I wondered from the start is this woman that she wants so badly is Sethe, and I was right. I think this whole time, she is re-living her murder. I think this section shows how Sethe never forgot about Beloved and how Sethe always wished she could have saved her in a different way. It shows Beloved’s relief for being reunited with her mother.
a.) While Sethe has legitimate reasons for her actions, it is never justifiable to murder your own children. I understand where she is coming from, not wanting to allow her children to live a life of slavery and abuse and wanting to do anything to prevent it. However, is not living a life at all better than living a life of pain? Sethe says she did it out of love, but to me, murdering your own children does not seem like a symbol of love.
ReplyDeleteb.) Slavery has a psychological effect on many of the characters in Beloved. It has a huge effect on Sethe and ended up driving her to murder her children. She knew how horrible the life of a slave is and couln’t bare to allow her children to life that life. Slavery also affected her husband, Halle. When he saw his brothers harassing his wife, he went insane. He did not defend her and he could not live a normal life after. It affected Paul D and caused him to not be able to settle. He spent his life after slavery wandering the country. No slave, besides Sethe, is able to love completely. Everyone always tells her that she loves things too much.
3. Why do you think Beloved refuses to share Sethe’s love with anyone else?
1.
ReplyDeletea. I think Sethe was totally justified in her decisions concerning Schoolteacher. Her decision wasn't out of carelessness for her children or the fact that she didn't want the burden of protecting them. She rather they be dead and unharmed forever than alive and beaten to the point of bloodshed. Sethe's main decision for her actions in the shed was to ensure that the scars she received from being whipped and tortured were never given to her family. Emotions may have influenced it, but the final outcome was not for an act of evil.
b. Many of the slaves who were held in Sweet Home were beaten to the point where their minds were rendered unresponsive (prime example: how no one helped Sethe during her beating and whipping). After being hurt so many times, the minds of the slaves began to shut down. They became severely depressed, scared, and oblivious to the world around them other than the work that they needed to do. Another effect, one that was far worse, was immense anger and hatred. Slaves would develop repressed feelings and let them build up until they unleashed it in full against their owners or even their friends. Halle was an example of when humiliation and abuse became so intense that it broke his mind and ended with sheer insanity. This is possibly a slight reason for Sethe's choice to end her children's lives rather than stop and reason for a longer period of time. And definitely the reason for Paul A's demise.
2. (see alternate thread)
3. If you were Beloved and didn't remember how you came to be a ghost or a half-living, half-spirit entity, would you want to find out? Even if it meant knowing your mother killed you? Would you ever forgive a parent if you were in the same situation?
Response to classmate questions:
ReplyDeleteKeila: I don't Halle will come back. Maybe as someone's memory, but not alive. He undoubtedly went completely insane and was in no shape to work or even function with the other slaves for that matter. I doubt that he was given any time to recover. I would think he would be hung or killed in some way rather than set free or sold. I doubt any other slave owner would want Halle in his post-slavery condition.
Kylie: Paul D will probably come back. He's become too involved in the story and with Sethe's life to just disappear without some sort of recognition. Paul D has pronounced his romantic and somewhat sexual feelings to Sethe, and I would think that his passion and care for her would be too strong for him to simply forget. Even if Beloved doesn't like him, and Sethe doesn't really tolerate his behavior, I think he'll come back. Even if it's just once in the rest of the novel.
4. When reading this passage, I was reminded of Elie Wiesel's novel, Night. When Beloved spoke of being crammed with dead and half dead bodies, it made me think of how people were treated on their way to concentration camps. I believe this is sort of how Beloved feels too because she says the ones that are able to fully die are the lucky ones. Being in the pond was so miserable, people would rather die than try to live. On another note, the conversation at the end of the novel was heart wrenching. I had begun to question Sethe's sanity and whether she actually really loved her children and this passage retracted those thoughts. Sethe has a deep motherly love for Beloved and does not seem like she is a baby killer. The chapter was very confusing yet insightful at the same time.
ReplyDeletePaige, the significance of Beloved’s tooth falling out is signifies that she needs Sethe’s love and attention to live. When Sethe gives her love and attention to someone else in her life, Beloved falls apart (literally). I think this is why Beloved kept trying to push Paul D away. She just became reincarnated and doesn’t want to die again.
ReplyDeleteGrace, I believe that for Beloved to go back to the pond, Setheneeds to stop loving her. Sethe’s love is keeping her alive and as soon as Sethe is unable to love her child, Beloved will die again.
Jess, my favorite character is Denver. All she wants in life if for people to love her. When her mother starts devoting her love to Paul D, it upsets her because it has always been her and her mom and no one else. When Beloved comes, her mother again gives away another part of her heart. Even though Denver feels like her mother loves her a little less because of newcomers in her life, she still wants Beloved to love her because she loves Beloved. All she wants is love and gives so much love, but can never get it in return.
1A. No, I do not think Sethe was justified in her actions when she attempted to kill her children (and succeeded in killing one) when Schoolteacher came. If Sethe was really that scared of her children becoming slaves, she could have passed them off as someone else’s children (perhaps giving a local black woman money in exchange for having the kids stay away from 124 for awhile). Or, Sethe could have run away to the North and gotten a job. There were many other options besides murder that Sethe could have chosen in order to keep her children safe.
ReplyDelete1B. “There is also my husband squatting by the churn smearing the butter as well as its clabber all over his face because the milk they took is on his mind” (83). Sethe’s husband Halle goes insane after witnessing white men “steal” his wife’s milk from her breast. Whitemen thought they could do whatever they wanted to their slaves because they “owned” them. Paul D witness the whitemen burn Sixo alive because he tried to escape Sweet Home. Even after Paul D escapes from Sweet Home, he can not escape from his memories. The only way he can forget about his past is if he drinks. In his mind, there is nothing left to do but lift the bottle and swallow (273).
2. “ ‘It’s a tree, Lu. A chokecherry tree. See, here’s the trunk- it’s red and split wide open, full of sap, and this here’s the parting for the branches. You got a mighty lot of branches’” (93).
I think Morrison uses the color red to hint at abuse and bloodshed. She tells the bleeders’ stories: those who bled because they chose to, and those who bled because they were victims.
3. Why has it taken Sethe so long to realize that Beloved is really her dead daughter come back from the grave? Also, why isn’t Sethe afraid of Beloved?
4. I found this section extremely difficult to read. It was very vague and symbolic, offering no explanations and confusing me to no end. Who are the “men without skin” (249)? Are they humans who raped Beloved, or are they ghosts who tried to help her? Also, why is there a man with pointy teeth on Beloved’s face (249)? This section raises more questions than it answers, much like the final episode of the TV series “Lost.”
Response:
Sarah>>Why do you think Beloved is making an appearance now, after all those years?
I think Beloved chose to show up now because Paul D got the ghost baby out of the house (124) when he made all that ruckus upon his arrival. It was almost an unintentional invitation to the world of the living. He banished her from one form (spirit) and coaxed her into another (physical).
1.
ReplyDeletea) Murder is never justifiable. Though Sethe's intentions may have been good, her horrid actions over shadows any true intent she had. I understand that she wanted to prevent her child from baring any pain that she might encounter with the school teacher. However, taking a child's life? What might that life have become if it had been lived?
b) Living the life of a slave definitely depresses the mind. As a slave, you are completely owned by another person. Nothing is yours, as we see when Baby Suggs discovers her own heart beat when given freedom. Many of the slaves have relationship issues, and issues involving their own self image. After years of being brutally beaten and abused, it is inevitable that a toll will be taken on their psychological state of being. Sethe was so affected that she killed in her own child in order to prevent her from feeling the same kind of pain that she did. If that isn't an extreme action due to her mental state, then I don't know what is.
Question:
What do you think would have come of Sethe's life if she had never murdered her child?
4. This section, though a little unclear at times, helped me to gain a better knowledge about Sethe's past. Reading about Sethe's horrible experiences opened my eyes to the everyday deteriorated mental state she must endure. It was really interested to here her side of the story when it comes to killing Beloved. It helped to give a new perspective, as well as everything else we learned. However it was so ambiguous, it left me yearning for answers...
ReplyDeleteSarah
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Beloved is making an appearance now, after all those years?
Beloved showed up when Sethe began to forget about being haunted by Beloved. This happened around the same time as when Paul D entered Sethe's family. Sethe was finally beginning to love and be happy, and Beloved could not be forgotten.
Corinne: Why has it taken Sethe so long to realize that Beloved is really her dead daughter come back from the grave? Also, why isn’t Sethe afraid of Beloved?
I believe that Sethe is in a form of denial. Deep inside I think that she knows Beloved's true identity. However, she is not ready to accept a truth that is so blatant. Sethe isn't afraid of Beloved because of her secretly knowing she is her daughter. Her motherly instinct makes her love her.
Jess Knierim: Why do you think Beloved refuses to share Sethe’s love with anyone else?
I think that Beloved refuses to share Sethe's love because I think that Sethe's love is what keeps her around. She needs to completely and entirely absorb Sethe's attention and take over her life, so her memory will always remain.
Responses:
ReplyDeleteJess M>Do you think that Sethe killed her daughter with the memory of the hanging of her own mother in mind? Did this inspire her to be as devoted as Sethe likes to believe her mother was?
I think that Sethe was thinking about her mother and everyone who has been killed that she loved when she killed her daughter. Sethe must have associated all the pain in her life with those memories like her mother and so many others and knew she did not want that for her child. Those horrible people like the Schoolteacher who were coming to take away her children were essentially the same people that hung her mother. I feel this did inspire Sethe because she wants to believe her mother would do anything for her daughter, to protect her. Sethe also wants her children to be in a safe place with her mother by killing her.
Jess K> Why do you think Beloved refuses to share Sethe’s love with anyone else?
Beloved refuses to share Sethe’s love with anyone else in my opinion because she feels like she has been deprived of her mother’s care for so long. Now that Beloved has the chance to be with the person she adored but has been separated from, she doesn’t want anything to jeopardize her attention. Paul D could make Sethe lose focus and so could Denver’s needs so she wants to get rid of them. Ironically, she wants to be loved by the person who stopped her from living. Beloved wants to make up for lost time.
Kylie>Do you think that Paul D will return to 124 because of his love for Sethe?
I think that Paul D will return to 124 because of his love for Sethe. After having time to think about why killing was her decision, Paul D will realize she was acting out of love. Sethe is not an animal, but someone he knows has a heart and will forgive. Love is a powerful thing in this novel, it is very rare, but Paul D will find his love for Sethe is thick and he cannot ignore it.
4. Beloved's rather long and deep recounting of memories at the slave farm finally reveals the secrets we've been waiting for. Now that Beloved has finally been realized as her daughter, the story opens to the reader that she constantly relives that day in the shed. I assume that she never truly forgot about what had happened and I even assume now that she KNEW who Sethe was in their second encounter but didn't want to believe it. But she has now revealed the horrific conditions of her life: living in constant fear, surrounded by the deaths of people she knows, some she wishes she knew. Death by starvation. Wandering in a hellish world she can't escape.
ReplyDeleteI think both Beloved and Sethe both knew who each other were, but didn't have the heart to explore it. Beloved's relief that she is know with her mother is becoming more evident. She's protective of her, and wishes to know everything about her.
4. This section is the part that I most anticipated. Beloved’s inner thoughts and story about her being on the other side, and Sethe reconnecting with her daughter. At first, I was a bit disappointed with the scattered thought process of Beloved’s speech because I wanted to understand the story she was telling, but I found as the section went on the writing style was more comfortable to read. Beloved’s repetitive mentioning of a hot thing which I understood as moments when people connected with each other, like her mother’s smile or the joining of two people. I found it touching and emotional to hear the journey between them because though they were separated, they were always thinking of one another from different worlds; an unbreakable bond.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteKeila--> In the novel, it is to be believed that Halle died. I do not think that Halle died because of what Paul D stated. Paul D had told Sethe that Halle saw the schoolteacher with Sethe. I feel that Halle decided to runaway while he had the opportunity. I did wonder why Halle did not stop the schoolteacher, but I have realized that it would have made situations worse on Sweet Home. Halle wanted to have freedom, and decided to escape at an opening. People most likely believe Halle died because they knew he was going to try to escape Sweet Home and go to 124 to his family.
ReplyDeleteKyra-->Since Beloved had entered 124; Denver has changed. In the beginning of the book, she was hidden in the background. Now since Beloved is there, she is showing through and the reader now sees her trying to know Beloved. She is getting the opportunity to act like a sister. She acts like a sister to Beloved by telling her stories and bonding with her at the house, and with their mother, Sethe. I do feel that in the near future, Denver will become jealous of Beloved’s love for Sethe. Beloved wants to be with Sethe because of their mother and daughter love for one another.
Grace-->While reading the novel, I do wonder if Beloved will ever go back into the water. The reason why I think she originally came out of the water was for Sethe. When Paul D came to see Sethe, Beloved saw that Sethe enjoyed the company. Beloved did not want to see Sethe forget about her and push her to the side, and that is when she arrived to 124. I think that the only way Beloved will go back into the water is if Sethe shows that Beloved is not the only one that can make her happy. I also think that Sethe has to show Beloved that she will love her no matter what.
4. In the previous section that was read in the novel, Beloved had become the narrator. I thought that this section of the novel was very confusing to read. When I began to read, I thought Beloved was the narrator, but then I thought the narrator became Denver and then Sethe. I wish Morrison made it more clear on who was talking. Besides the confusion, I hoped that I would have found out more about the killing of Beloved and her feelings on it. The reader knows that Sethe killed her daughter, Beloved, for the sake of saving her from slavery, but the reader wants to know what was going on through her head. When Beloved talked about the no skin men I thought it was poetic because it was a different way of looking at people.
ReplyDeleteKeila,
ReplyDeleteHalle’s character is very mysterious. When Sethe refers to him, she mentions the fact that the love that they shared was never that of husband and wife, it was more like that of brother and sister. Because this is the relationship they had, even if he may have wanted more, he wasn’t strong enough to prove it to Sethe. For example, when Sethe was being attacked, raped, by schoolteacher he couldn’t do anything about it. He didn’t love her enough to sacrifice himself. Also, Baby Suggs said that the only reason that she thought Halle was dead was because she had a ‘feeling,’ no further proof. I think Halle ran away. He ran from 124, Sethe, and his entire past. No proof leads me to believe that he is still alive, and his description does not persuade me to think that he would sacrifice anything for his family.
Grace,
I think that it will take a lesson learned by Sethe for Beloved to go back where she came from. The motif of love is very apparent throughout this novel. Since Beloved’s murder was out motherly instinct to protect, Beloved wants to show Sethe that it was love; to not be afraid of her past. She needs to move on and live her life. But I also agree with Paige, when she said that Beloved doesn’t ever want to leave. She wants to be part of the family, and have a chance at life.
Jessica M,
I don’t think that Sethe killed her daughter with the memory of the hanging of her own mother in mind. She may have thought about it later but, in the heat of the moment, when she reacted to her fear with love all she wanted to do was protect her daughter. She was not thinking about the connections to her mother. Later she connected these two events together, but when she was in the moment all she was thinking about was the happiness of her daughter.
Jamie Loder –
ReplyDeleteBeloved definitely came back out of the water through supernatural means. There was unresolved business, and no one can rest until she has finished this. I do agree with Jess Griscti about Beloved coming back with the help of Baby Suggs. Beloved came back at a time when Sethe and Paul D were starting a new life because they were now moving on from the past and living in the present. Once they did that, Beloved would be out of the picture forever, and she couldn’t have that. Beloved needed Sethe to give her full attention. I believe that Beloved will go back eventually, but only when Sethe really does live in the future and move on from her horrible past.
Sarah –
From the start of the novel, there was a baby ghost haunting the house. Since then, the arrival of Beloved was expected. When Denver saw the baby praying with Sethe, you know the time would be coming shortly. Beloved specifically came back now instead of earlier or later because she couldn’t have her mother moving on in her life without her. For the many years after Beloved’s death, Sethe could not move on in her life because she was constantly dwelling in the past and holding onto the horrors of her old life. But now when Paul D came into the picture, Sethe’s life was progressing. She was happy and living with her past without her past, in a sense. Beloved came back to bring Sethe back to her past because she wants to forever be a part of her mother’s life.
Kylie-
Yes, I do think that Paul D will return to Sethe because of his love for her. Although Paul D goes on and on about how being an ex-slave you can’t give your love away to one person, it’s safe to say that he broke his own rule. He’s not just an ex-slave who loves a woman he just met; he’s an ex-slave who loves a woman he went through so much with. How many people do you know are brutally honest with someone who is simply a friend?